Frode Gjerstad

Could you introduce you to the french public ? Is it easy for you to play creative jazz in Norway ?
Norway is a small country - only about 4 mill. people live here. And our jazztradition is not all that strong. At least not outside Oslo. We have one main name here: Jan Garbarek. He is a very well known person here because he makes music which lots of people here seem to like. As you may be familier with, he used to play quite free in his earlier years, by the end of the sixties. So did Arild Andersen, his bass player, drummer Jon Christensen and guitarist Terje Rypdal. But all of them left the free thing and most of them became composers. After their flirting with free music, no-one in this country continued that tradition. And because they were very well established, rolemodels, most of the other musicians adopted their attitude which was quite negative towards that music. But I was not living in Oslo and so I was under no such influence!
Before that, in -66, I think,  I saw a TV program where someone was playing sax and violin in a way that I had never  seen or heard before. Later I found out it must have been Ornette Coleman. It was a Swedish program so it was probably recorded at the time of the famous Golden Circle recordings on Blue Note. His conviction and intensity was amazing and far above anything I had heard up until then.  And it hit me right away as a music based on emotions more than academic research. A very personal language. I felt this was so much stronger than the kind of jazz I had been listening to. Which at that point, was not too much: Mulligan and Chet Baker, Benny Goodman, Coleman Hawkins. etc. It was not until much later that I discovered who Ornette really was and what his music was like. In fact, I did not even remember his name from the TV program. But when I saw a picture of Ornette, Izenson and Moffet, I remembered their faces!
Early in -68 I got to hear Conquistador by Cecil Taylor. I had read about him in Down Beat.  I immediately loved Jimmy Lyons sweet playing as well as the trumpet of Bill Dixon. A little later that year, I read a review in Down Beat of Albert Aylers «Live in Greenwich Village» and for some mysterious reason, I found the LP in the shop within a week! That was it. I was totally blown out. How could he allow himself to play like that? I really wanted to get a tenor sax to get that sound and intensity. At that time,I was playing trumpet in a R&B band. When the sax player in our band had to quit, the other guys told me either to quit or to get myself a saxophone which I did. It was a great moment!
Up until -68 there were only American musicians for me. I had been reading the Melody Maker on and off for a while, when I noticed a name which popped up every now and then: John Stevens. I read an interview with him and he immediately struck me as a man who had lots of opinions and creative ideas. A little later, Bobby Bradford was interviewed, and he was playing with the Spontaneous Music Ensemble. He also seamed to me to be a special man for some reason.
In -71 I moved to Sweden to study economics. But my main reason to go there was to play music! The free music was much more alive there. I met several nice people and played all the time in various small situations. 
Moving back to Norway in -75, I started playing with a quartet which became quite popular, locally. the pianist was Eivin One Pedersen. We played a bit like Jarrett´s band with Motian and Redman. Gradually, we moved further «out» and we lost our audiences!  We just did not think about it.  We were quite obsessed with the idea of total improvisation. And in 1978, I went to the  Moers festival in Germany. There I saw all the people I had only heard on records before: the best Americans, Germans, British and Dutch players. That trip lasted a long time in my head. Forme, it was a question of  energy, freedom and sounds. I just could not understand that there were hardly anyone in Norway who would absorb andplay that music. It was so strong.

When did you meet John Stevens ? Was it a good friend for you ?
In -79 I had a trio with keyboards (Pedersen), drums and myself. We toured most of the country. Our music was funny mix of reggae, freejazz and electric funky music! But we got a bit of attention. This was my Moers-influnce... In the  fall of 1981, I had a gig here in Stavanger with a friend, pianist  Eivin One Pedersen.We did not have drummer for the gig. So I said: why not try just for once to play with a real drummer. And I thought about John Stevens whom I had met  briefly in London maybe two years earlier while visiting there. I called him up and he came over. We played one open rehearsal and a concert. And that was it!I felt so free and got so much energy from playing with John. It was difficult to come down after the gig was over. He was staying at our house while he was here, and we talked and drank some wine through the night. Lots of questions and funny answers. I was not used to his humour and many times I thought he was in a subtle way telling me this was no good.But then he suggested we should get Johnny Dyani, his favourite bass player,to play bass with us as a quartet. 
We did our first tour with Johnny as Detail in March -82 and we played the Molde festival that summer. Later that year, our pianist quit. It was at the end of a tour, the day before we had planned to do our first recording. When we started playing in the studio, I felt so much freer without the piano. It was a releaf being a trio! The first things we did as a trio came out as "Backwards and Forwards" on the Impetus label. And we got 4 stars in Down Beat!  Which I thought was quite good for a debut.... Later on, Impetus also released the last consert as a trio, with Dyani,on the double LP "Ness". That was a concert performance from Oslo. A few months before Johnny  died in -86, we did a tour of Britain with Bobby  Bradford. After we did the tour in England, both my tenor and my mouthpiece  was stolen. After that, I never could find the sound I used to have. I was quite fed up with my new tenor and started playing on an old Martin alto sax I had found. All of a sudden, it was easier for me to relate to that sound than to the tenor. After Dyani died, we got Kent Carter on bass. He lived in France and had played with Steve Lacy for a long time. Before that with Paul Bley etc. and was a very accepted jazz musician with a liking for free musics. He was definitely Johns first choice for bass when Johnny died. They really enjoyed playing together. During the later years, we toured  with Billy Bang in-89 and again a couple of tours with Bobby Bradford who loves Kents playing a lot. We also extended the trio on several occasions with ad hoc combinations including Paul Rutherford,tb , Barry Guy, bass, Dudu Pukwana, alto sax, Evan Parker, tenor sax, Harry Beckett, trpt , etc.
I think that the music we played in Detail  was too much jazz for the improv people and too free for the jazz people. So we fell between two chairs. I still feel that this is a good music to play. I love relating the music to  rhythms somehow. I feel the music moves better.  I like it when the music is hot. When you feel like you are in a church and the spirit hits you. Like talking in tounges. Being in trance. Orgasmic. I do not see this music as being intellectual. I feel strongly it is the opposite. At least for me. It´s highly emotional. Spiritual. It´s all about feelings and emotions. So through John, I met a lot of very fine musicians. He also gave me insight into his rhythmic world, which was both complex and simple at the same time. And generally, we became very close friends. Our two families became friends. It was not however,  until - 93, I think, that  I was invited to playwith his Spontaneous Music Ensemble, a very special unit. And one of my earliest favourites in free music. I did only one gig with Nigel Coombes, violin and Roger Smith, acoustic guitar and John on his tiny little set. A very nice experience.
When John died in -94, I lost a very good friend and adviser. We made 7 records with Detail. At the time of his death, I decided not to have a group anymore. Only projects.

Why did you start Circulasione Totale ? Could you speak to us about his evolution ?
I started Circulasione Totale because I wanted to give myself something to do ! This was in the summer of -81 and I started working on a solo cassette. At that point, in 1981, a very good friend had died in cancer and my life changed a lot : I got a wife and a daughter at that time as well and the music became much more important to me than it was before. Making a solo recording was my first step into the new reality, so to say. It was done on one of the first Tascam Portastudios. But for me, it was far more important to do do it than to look at the relative basic sound of the recording. I was very happy with my cassette which was the first step. My friend, Eivin One Pedersen, released a pianotrio cassette as well and a solo cassette. We released a duoble-cassette from our first gig with John Stevens, called "X-Mas Cards 1 and 2". All in all I think I released about 19 series which opened a few doors. We got reviews in many magazines and we were even invited to Argentina to play. But unfortunately, for various reasons, it never happened. We came on the map. as John stevens put it.
I  moved on to CDs in -91 I think, when I released "In Time Was" with Dyani, Stevens, Bobby Bradford and I. It was basically done because the German label,Enja, wanted to release it: we had signed the contracts, sent them the tapes. Everything was under control. Then one day I received a letter saying we are sorry, but we do not want to release your tapes because you just had another LP out on Impetus! I was absolutely mad. When I received the tapes I just did it on my own. I felt the music was strong and should be out. We got 4 stars in Down Beat for that CD, which was good and justified the release. The Cds I have done, are projects where I might get some kind of support from either a sponsor or from some kind of grant. Ideally, I do not want to release any CDs on my own. It´s too much work involved. I would rather let someone else do it. Remember, I also record many of my tapes myself and mix them in my little studio. It´s too much when you have to go through the whole lot. But I am sure I will continue releasing some stuff from time to time. On a very irregular basis. I also try to use my daughter, Camilla, to do the art work for my CDs to get some kind of visual identity. She is not a pro, but she is enjoying what she is doing. And she has made some nice drawings for me.

In 1996 you recorded a CD with Rashid Bakr and William Parker.
I had come to New York February -96, I think, to practise and to edit a tape with Borah Bergman. As it turned out, he did not like the tape and I was really desperate to find something meaningful to do while I was there. I was staying with pianist Mark Hennen and he invited me to a session at his place.  I did not know who was coming, but it turned out that both Rashid Bakr and William Parker came as well as Sabeer Mateen who played some very nice tenorsax.
After the jam was over I went straight over to Rashid and William and asked if we could do a recording. They agreed and said I had to find a studio!  I had met a sound guy who at that time worked for the Knitting Factory, James McLean. Then I went straight over to the Knitting Factory and the first man I met was James. I explained the situation and he agreed to do it - Saturday at 11 in the morning. I was going home that day and knew I did not have too much time to record, but said yes.
When I arrived on that morning at the Knitting Factory, no-one was there except the firebrigade! I thought this is it. Forget it. But it was a false alarm. By 12:30 we had set up in the downstairs bar because that was the only room which was free! Somewhere in the middle of the session someone came in with a box full of beerbottles and put them not so gently on the floor. It´s on the tape... At 3 o´clock I left the building to catch my plane home. At that time we had about 65 minutes of recorded music. I was so high after the session was over because I was drunk on the music for a long time.
I think I cut off a couple of small things, but basically, I kept it all and it ended up as  the Cadence CD "Seeing New York from the Ear". That title was a way for my to describe the stess of the recording situation. I wanted really badly to have a tape with me home. And the way to "survive" during the recording session was to use my ears as much as I could. This was a sink or swim situation.  I would like to thank John Stevens for showing me how to "swim". He always talked about these situations which you have to be prepared for. This session also led to the trio with William and Hamid Drake.
Early in 1997 I received a grant and was voted «Jazz Musician ofthe Year» in Norway. I felt that was a nice way to say the music is finally being accepted here as well. As part of this thing, I got to play a very successfull tour of Scandinavia with William Parker and Hamid Drake. Both Borah Bergman and Peter Brøtzmann told me to try to find an opportunity to play with Hamid. This was the situation I needed to do so. "Remember to Forget " was a live recording from that tour, released in -98. And "Ultima", another live recording from the same tour, will be released on Cadence in October, this year.. This trio is for me the present day "Detail". A more mature version of that group. All the experience I got from playing with Stevens, Dyani and Carter is now beeing recycled. And I have developed my playing quite a bit over the last few years so my expression is much stronger. I hope to continue this project and in January, we will tour America and Canada and probably make another recording during that tour. I know this is also Brøtzmanns rhythm-section, but Peter and I play different music so I think there should be room for both of us. When Brøtzmann and I did our first duo-tour last year, we spoke about these things to avoid any conflicts.

When did you create the Circulasione Totale Orchestra ? Is it a great challenge for you ?
I have had a bigger group since 1985 , the Circulasione Totale Orchestra, mostly playing more electric music, like the Prime Time world of Ornette Colemans. We have been quite successful with younger audiences. And in 1989 I presented an edition which was 3 horns, three basses, three drummers, accordion, guitar, a rapper and a scratcher (DJ).We did «live hip-hop» music with a rapper, J.C. 001 from London, who was into doing «free-style». For me, that was just like free music. It worked out very well. Unfortunately, I turned down an offer from the Norwegian state radio to make a live recording. I thought it was going to be a disaster, because the rehearsals were terrible. But it turned out fine. Maybe I lost my golden opportunity??? At that time live bands with rappers and DJs were not very common. That band was invented to present my compositions as well as being a place for me to play with local musicians on a more regular basis. The music had  a "rockish" sound  so it was relatively easy to find younger people with an interest in experimenting. It was a place for me to try out various compositions. In a way an ongoing workshop.
After more than ten years  with this group and constantly changing personell, I decided to end it. In 1998 I  changed my mind again (!) and put together a new Circulasione Totale Orchestra for a recording which came out as a CD, "Borealis" on Cadence Jazz Records. For the first time, I used acoustic basses and we were able to improvise the whole album allthough I did some conducting and on-the-spot-arrangements during the recording session. Ideally, I would like to do more work with my C.T.Orchestra, but we are at least 7 people and financially, that is a disaster! So instead of not playing, I have made the band smaller - a trio!  We have practised a lot and I think we can reach some new territory by working steady together. We  use my compositions when we practise, but when we play, we play free, most of the time. Sometime, we touch the compositions. They are always there to be used spontaneously and is also a way to sculpture the sound of the group. The drummer and bassist are young with lots of positive energy. They also play in the CTO. That way I feel in touch with the bigger group and we can bring in more people if there is a chance now and then, still maintaining and improving the sound. Right now at the time of this interview, I want to expand the trio into  a quartet with  two drummers.  And to do a recording with that unit.  I love playing with two drummers. It leaves you free to play with both, with one or with none and it is a nice, strong  physical sound. What I like about a drummer is the power, the raw energy and the sound. I like to be pulled into the rhythms and the sounds that are found within the drumset and get lost! I used to do some duoes with John Stevens and it is an incredible big sound two people can produce!   I guess, for me, the drummer is the most important musician in a band. With a good drummer, you can sound quite good,even if you are an average player. But with a an average drummer, a good band sounds average. Borah has been very encouraging to me and inspired me to practice a lot.I had met him right before John died in -94 and I went to see him in New York in-95.  We played a bit and he encouraged me to find new people to play with. So in early -96 Borah, Evan Parker and I did a trio-tour of Norway.  Borah and I played with Peter Brötzmann as a trio during the Molde festival later that summer.

You played recently a duo with Peter Brotzmann. Was it a good experience ?
I thought about Brotzmann again last spring and found out  he was going to Denmark and Sweden. So I called him up and asked him if it was possible to extend the tour a little bit. He agreed and we did the Kongsberg Festival, a TV thing and a few gigs ending up in Stavanger where we recorded our consert at Cafe Sting. This CD just came out on Cadence Jazz Records. It was a very nice little tour. The weather was nice, we were both in a good mood and we did some nice playing. We did another trip this year. I hope to continue this duo from time to time because it represents a different challenge. You do not have any drums to lean on. You have to be your own motor! And the sounds we produce together are sometimes amazing. When we start a piece and we hit the same note - that is scary. That´s why I called the CD "Invisible Touch". Playing with Brötzmann has opened up some of these territories that were closed for me for many years for one reason or another, but they were things I used to do in the early years. It is very refreshing , standing next to him, listening to his energy and sound. We choose different paths in our individual musical projects lots of the time. So it is very nice every now and then having the opportunity to play with Peter. I have great respect for what he is doing. He has inspired me quite a bit, but I have no intensions trying to play like him. We have different experiences. To me, he is one of the few  real artists to-day. And he is terribly overlooked by  lots of people, unfortunately. Also, I have just finished a duo-CD with percussionist Steve Hubback. In some ways this is a follow-up of the solo CD I did last year, "ISM". I am visiting some of the same territoies, but this time with Steve.

What are your projects ?
I met Steve in Copenhagen some years ago. Last year he called me up and said he was going to Stavanger with a friend to visit some people and asked me if I wanted to play. Since then, he has visited a few times and we finally recorded a bit. Steve is also an inventor and maker of very nice percussion instruments. His playing is very different to any other drummer I have played with. He is going for a more eastern sound leaving me with much more space than I am used to. It took me quite a while to get used to his playing. I think we are going to continue this duo as well because it represents another little corner of the music and is definitely a huge challenge for me. In January next year, I will be touring North-America with William Parker and Hamid Drake. I have finally got myself together to book this tour. I must admit I do find it very hard to do the booking of a band. And there is a quartet-CD with Louis Moholo coming out soon in London on a new label. Or, that is what we hope for. This record was supposed to come out last year, but things do happen...This year, we give it another try. I had Louis and bassist Nick Stephens comming over to Stavanger from London and Hasse Poulsen, guitar, from Copenhagen. at the MaiJazz festival here in 1996.We did the festival plus some other gig. It was nice and we decided to do a recording which we did in that fall in London. I also played some gigs with Louis and William Parker where Louis was subbing for Hamid Drake. We did some very nice playing with Louis. And I hope to be able to play with him again. 

Interview by Sébastien Moig

Discographie

With Detail
- In Time Was - Circulasione Totale - 1990
- Less More - Circulasione Totale - 1991

Frode Gjerstad Quartet - Ikosa Mura - CJR - 1998
Frode Gjerstad Trio - Remember to Forget - Circulasione Totale - 1998
Frode Gjerstad & The Circulasione Totale Orchestra - Borealis - CJR - 1998
Frode Gjerstad with Peter Brötzmann - Invisible Touch - CJR - 1999